Big Name or Startup? Navigating Internship Choices

SONDER member Gary Guo is interviewing Julia

Julia, a student at the Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto, has had a diverse range of internship experiences. She has interned at the startup company WOMBO.ai, as well as well-established firms like IBM and CPP Investment. In this edition of Jumpstart Your Career, we delve into her internship journey, exploring the differences between working at a startup and a corporate giant. As a first-time intern, the question arises: should one opt for the immersive small-team experience at a startup or the reputed name and scale offered by a corporate behemoth? Join us to gain insights into Julia's perspective.

Internship Experience at IBM & Comparison to Startup

• How did your experience at your first startup, Wambo, contribute to your application process for IBM?

  Well, my time at WOMBO certainly made a significant impact on my application process, particularly when it came to both my resume and the interview stage. While having that experience on my resume was valuable, I believe its true worth was showcased during the interview itself. The interview with IBM followed a standard behavioral format, with a few technical questions pertinent to the role. However, the majority of the questions revolved around scenarios like conflict resolution and instances of taking initiative. The way I described my dedication at Wambo, the dynamic with my co-founder, and the recommendations I provided truly caught the attention of the IBM interviewer. It unquestionably set me apart in their eyes, making a positive difference in my application journey.

  Nonetheless, I'd like to emphasize that although my experience at Wambo was beneficial, it wasn't an absolute necessity. Interestingly, I had a conversation with my hiring manager afterward, and she revealed that one of the major factors that drew her to my profile was the diversity of experiences I brought to the table. My involvement in extracurricular activities, participation in case competitions, and active role within the student community made a compelling case for me as a candidate. This broader spectrum of experiences seemed to carry more weight than any single internship, underlining the idea that it was the holistic picture that resonated with her decision.

• What led you to apply for a position at IBM?

  To be completely honest, my decision to apply for IBM was driven by a more pragmatic approach. At that point, I was in the midst of mass applying to various companies. The truth is, I was quite apprehensive and eager to secure a corporate internship opportunity. So, I cast a wide net and applied almost everywhere, and IBM happened to be among the companies that extended an offer to me. I believe this approach holds merit, particularly for your initial internship experience. It's important not to be overly selective. If a good opportunity presents itself and aligns with your interests, my perspective is to seize it.

  However, it's worth noting that this initial choice can significantly influence your subsequent career trajectory. In my case, the first internship with IBM, a tech company, set a certain direction. This was followed by another tech role at CBPIB, and even my current role at American Express carries a tech-oriented dimension. It's apparent that one opportunity often paves the way for another, and I can't help but feel that there's an element of fate guiding these transitions.

• You mentioned that you were eager for a corporate internship. What motivated this eagerness? Why did you have such a strong desire for a corporate internship?

  The strong desire for a corporate internship actually stemmed from a conversation I had with an upper-year student. We had a conversation over WeChat, and her insights left a lasting impression on me. She shared a perspective that truly resonated: she believed that everyone should aim for at least one corporate experience and one startup experience in their career journey. Her reasoning behind this advice was quite compelling. She explained that both corporate and startup environments offer unique learning opportunities that contribute significantly to one's professional growth.

  For instance, the startup experience exposes you to a dynamic where you often have significant ownership and responsibilities, shedding light on your working style and strengths. On the other hand, a corporate experience adds a valuable name to your resume, which is crucial in the recruitment process. Her advice seemed very logical to me, and that's why I was so determined to gain a corporate internship as well. It aligned with my understanding of how these different experiences could contribute to a more holistic professional development journey.

• Between interning at a startup and working in a corporate environment, which one do you prefer?

  That's quite a tough question. I'd say that personally, I'm inclined towards the startup environment. However, I don't necessarily aspire to hold the highest level of responsibility, like being a founder, as I'm not keen on having my entire life revolve around the demands of a startup 24/7. It's the nature of that commitment that gives me pause. Nevertheless, I find startup work to be incredibly meaningful. I believe I would thrive in a supportive role, contributing to the more operational or business analysis aspects of a startup. Exploring such a role in my twenties seems really enticing.

  On the flip side, when I think about the long-term, I can envision leaning more towards a corporate job. To explain it to my friends, I often refer to myself as someone who's drawn to a "white picket fence" kind of lifestyle. I have aspirations to get married, have a family, and lead a comfortable life in the suburbs. In this context, the stability offered by a corporate position and the clear separation between work and personal life seem incredibly appealing and advantageous.

• When considering internships for university students, would you recommend a corporate internship or a startup internship?

  Personally, I would recommend leaning towards a corporate internship. The reason behind this recommendation is that a corporate internship tends to offer a broader range of opportunities and possibilities for your future pursuits. Corporations often seek candidates with prior corporate experience, which makes having such an internship on your resume quite valuable. Interestingly, even startups place value on candidates with corporate experience, as it adds a level of credibility to your profile. I can recall a situation during my time at Wambo when we were seeking engineers. My co-founder advised me to focus on individuals who had worked at companies like Facebook, Apple, or Snapchat because they were known to possess exceptional coding skills. This serves as a testament to the fact that having corporate internships can significantly enhance your prospects.

  In essence, if I had to choose, I would say that corporate internships have the potential to open up more doors for you in the long run.

Internship Experience at CPP Investment

• Did your transition from IBM to CPP stem from your desire to accumulate corporate experiences? Is this why you were interested in having multiple well-known corporate names on your resume?

  I was indeed motivated by the goal of gaining a diverse range of experiences. Moving from IBM to CPP represented an opportunity for me to delve into a new sector, one that I hadn't previously worked in—financial services. The exposure I gained at CPP, working with a pension fund, provided me with a unique perspective that was truly eye-opening. Subsequently, my move to American Express brought me into a more consumer-facing domain, which I found quite intriguing.

  As a part-time student, my overarching aim is to gather as much practical work experience as possible. I'm fully aware that once I graduate, frequent job changes over short periods might not reflect well on my resume. This period in my academic journey presents an ideal time to make these transitions and gain a comprehensive understanding of various industries and roles. This approach aligns with my long-term career aspirations and ensures that I enter the professional world with a well-rounded background.

• Could you walk us through the recruitment process for CPP Investments?

  Just to provide full context, my internship with CPP was in their tech and data department, which operates a bit differently from the rest of the company. The recruitment process has three main hiring timelines: September to December, January to April, and May to August. All of these timelines are similarly competitive, and they hire for internships spanning a few months within those periods.

  In my case, I applied for the September internship cohort. The process started with an online application through their website, where I submitted my resume and a message to the recruiter (akin to a cover letter). My message to the recruiter highlighted my tech experience from IBM and explained my interest in CPP Investments, which seemed to help me stand out.

  Following the online application, I received an invitation for a video interview. This interview was relatively swift, around 15 minutes in duration. It involved responding to three to four questions, which covered a mix of behavioral and technical topics, focusing on my background and my interest in digital transformation. The interview was self-recorded, where I was given a question, a minute to gather my thoughts, and then the opportunity to respond.

  After the video interview stage, the recruiter got in touch to arrange a series of interviews. This comprised two rounds of one-hour interviews, each with three different interviewers. Approximately an hour prior to each interview, I received a case study to review. It's worth mentioning that the tech and data internship program had two distinct tracks: engineering and analyst. As a result, the case study included both technical (engineering) and business-related (analyst) components.

  The technical aspect of the case study presented me with a page of code that required debugging and enhancement. The task was to identify issues and improve the code's functionality. The second part of the case study was more focused on a business scenario.

  During the actual interview, the first half-hour was dedicated to discussing the case study, followed by another 30 minutes covering behavioral questions. This pattern was replicated in the second hour with different interviewers. I found addressing questions for which I didn't have immediate answers to be particularly challenging. However, I learned to brainstorm ideas and walk through my thought process, which was something the interviewers seemed to appreciate.

  A key insight I gained was that the interviewers genuinely wanted to see candidates succeed. They were open to offering assistance, which is something many students might not anticipate. Their goal was to ensure that candidates had a positive experience throughout the process. This realization boosted my confidence, as I understood that the emphasis was not solely on giving the right answer, but on effectively conveying my problem-solving approach.

  Ultimately, I didn't secure the engineering role, but I was offered the analyst position based on my demonstrated potential in explaining my thought processes. If I were to offer advice to fellow candidates, I would suggest approaching the process with confidence and placing an emphasis on articulating your problem-solving methodology.

• During that interview, when you faced questions that were outside your area of expertise and couldn't answer them, did you feel a sense of doubt, like you might not be hired? Was that something that crossed your mind?

  I experienced a lot of apprehension during that interview. There were moments when I genuinely believed that my inability to answer those questions might hinder my chances of being hired. They would pose questions like, "What do you perceive the issues to be?" And I would find myself responding with, "Honestly, I have no clue, but these are a few thoughts I'm considering." Later, they would follow up with, "What solutions can you suggest?" And I would think, "I'm completely lost here. I barely comprehend the problem myself."

  Despite these challenges, I still found the experience to be valuable. Walking out of that interview, I realized it had provided me with a learning opportunity. Interestingly, I had almost decided not to take the interview at all when I saw the case study and got scared. I went so far as to message the recruiter, expressing my doubts and concerns. I vividly remember feeling quite overwhelmed. However, the recruiter offered me a lot of encouragement, and I credit her for motivating me to move forward. A piece of advice I'd give to others is that sometimes you simply need to forge ahead, even when you're scared. In the grand scheme of things, you won't remember this experience all that vividly a couple of weeks later. It's okay to take those leaps of faith.

• Even though your responses didn't align with their expected format for the questions, you still managed to secure the role. What qualities do you believe they recognized in you?

  Indeed, despite not meeting their anticipated response format, there were two key qualities that I believe they saw in me. Firstly, they acknowledged that I had a sound problem-solving approach. Even though I couldn't provide precise answers, I made sure to structure my thinking. For instance, if I didn't know the answer, I would outline three logical steps I would take to approach the issue, even if those steps were somewhat improvised. This demonstrated to them that I possessed the foundation for effective problem solving.

  Secondly, and perhaps more abstractly, I always think of interviews as a "vibe check." It's like they're evaluating whether you're someone they would want to collaborate with. Approaching the interview in this light helped me shed some of my nervousness and present myself more naturally. I aimed to create a conversational atmosphere, treating it as an opportunity to collaboratively address a problem rather than a rigid Q&A session. This approach seemed to resonate with them and made me come across as personable. It's this particular aspect of my approach that I think stood out and contributed to their decision.

  In essence, their recognition of my problem-solving approach and the positive impression I made in terms of interpersonal dynamics played a crucial role in their decision to offer me the role.

• For individuals seeking internship-level positions, such as university students or recent graduates, do you believe that interviews mostly serve as a way to assess potential rather than concrete skills? Is it safe to say that these interviews are primarily "vibe checks"?

  When it comes to internships, especially for individuals who are still in university or have recently graduated, interviews tend to focus more on assessing potential rather than a laundry list of hard skills. A better way to phrase it might be that these interviews are a means of gauging a candidate's capacity to learn and grow. Considering that at this stage, candidates might not have an extensive range of experiences or technical expertise, these interviews delve into identifying whether they exhibit the potential for future development.

  To be more precise, interviewers are seeking traits that indicate receptiveness to feedback, an ability to collaborate, and an approachability in communication. Since it can be challenging to accurately gauge these qualities without actually working alongside the candidate, interviews serve as a way to discern whether an individual is likely to evolve positively within the organization. Hence, it's safe to say that these interviews are essentially "vibe checks" designed to assess a candidate's overall potential and their fit within the company culture.

• Once you officially began your internship at CPP, did you encounter any significant challenges that initially seemed insurmountable or exceptionally difficult?

  Stepping into both of my internships, I faced a common scenario that might resonate with others. It's the feeling of being entirely clueless when entering a new role. While everyone insists that you can ask questions if needed, the sense of being lost can be so overwhelming that you're not even sure where to start seeking answers. However, by the time I started my internship at CBPIB, I had learned from previous experiences. I had grown comfortable with the idea of not having all the answers during the initial phase and being patient with myself in that regard.

  As time progressed, I was fortunate to work under the guidance of an exceptional manager and an excellent team. They consistently provided mentorship and were willing to guide me through the intricacies of the work. Despite this supportive environment, I did encounter a challenge later on, around the midpoint of my internship during the second semester. I found myself juggling a multitude of commitments, from case competitions to schoolwork, and my health took a toll, causing additional complications. This made managing responsibilities more difficult.

  During this period, I still met the basic expectations of my work, but I wasn't able to go above and beyond as my manager had hoped. This was particularly challenging for me, as I felt I fell short of his expectations. While it wasn't an ideal situation, it was a valuable learning experience. I had to navigate how to handle such situations and address the expectations that I might not always be able to exceed. This challenge taught me the importance of balancing various commitments and managing expectations in a demanding environment.

• Do you agree with the notion that the initial phase of an internship greatly shapes the overall experience? In other words, if you're proactive and exceed expectations from the start, you're likely to leave a positive impression that leads to more opportunities and mentorship throughout the internship?

  The beginning of an internship indeed sets the tone for the entire experience. During this early phase, your level of communication and willingness to go beyond what's asked of you can leave a lasting impact. When you establish a reputation for being proactive and dedicated, it creates a positive impression that resonates with your manager and team. This impression, once formed, tends to influence the opportunities and support you receive throughout the internship.

  From what I've observed, it's common for managers to use the initial period to gauge your capabilities and reliability. They often assign tasks as a way to test what they can entrust to you. Once you demonstrate your capabilities and pass these initial tests, it establishes a foundation of trust that can influence the trajectory of the internship. A personal example is when I showcased proficiency in slide building, which prompted my manager to assign me more slide-related tasks. Similarly, I struggled with data-related tasks, so those were delegated to another intern. This experience underscored for me the validity of this notion. It's not just about demonstrating skills, but about building a sense of trust and dependability from the outset, which paves the way for further opportunities and growth throughout the internship.

• Did you feel supported by your manager when you wanted to learn or try new things?

  Absolutely, I found CPP Investments, particularly my team, to be incredibly supportive in that aspect. My manager was always proactive in helping me explore new areas of learning. He took the time to explain various investment deals and the intricacies of private investments, which I found to be quite meaningful. Moreover, even beyond my immediate team, the HR department arranged opportunities for interns like myself to expand our knowledge. I remember participating in a hackathon where we learned about AWS. In my opinion, a great mentor goes beyond just answering questions; they share information that mentees didn't even realize they needed. It was a fantastic experience.

• Did your manager entrust you with significant responsibilities during your internships? How would you compare your experiences at CPP Investments and IBM in this regard?

  I found that I was given more substantial responsibilities at CPP Investments compared to IBM, and I believe this difference was influenced by factors such as age and experience. During my time at CPP, they provided me with ample opportunities to engage with senior-level professionals and even conduct independent calls with various teams, including engineers. This experience was incredibly meaningful, especially as my internship progressed towards its conclusion. On the other hand, my IBM internship didn't involve as much high-risk work, which I attribute partly to my relatively young age and limited experience at that point.

Advice for First Year Student

• Is it challenging for first-year university students to secure quality corporate internships?

  Securing a good corporate internship can indeed be challenging for first-year university students. To increase their chances of success, students need to adopt a strategic approach. One effective method is to identify a specific niche or industry that genuinely interests them and then focus on networking within that industry. Take, for example, a mentee of mine who had a passion for vegan food and its production. She successfully secured her first internship by reaching out to vegan food startups on platforms like LinkedIn. This approach proved to be quite effective and rewarding.

  However, it's important to note that, in general, corporate internships are competitive for first-year students due to their limited experience. Participating in a corporate recruitment process that doesn't involve resume screening can make the process easier, as your experience might not yet be as extensive. Yet, I encourage students not to lose hope. Exploring opportunities with startups can also provide valuable experiences for first-year students.

• Do you believe it's more advantageous for university students, particularly first-year students, to gain experience in startups or in corporate environments?

  I believe it's crucial for university students to gain exposure to both startup and corporate experiences, and there are two key reasons for this. Firstly, a startup experience provides valuable insights into your work style when you're given significant autonomy and the chance to contribute to meaningful projects. On the other hand, a corporate internship holds importance as it offers enhanced networking opportunities and adds credibility to your professional profile. Thus, having a balance of both types of experiences is beneficial.

  In the broader context of preparing for post-graduation opportunities, a corporate internship is generally more advantageous. This is because corporations value candidates with corporate experience, and the same applies to startups. Therefore, having corporate internships under your belt can significantly enhance your prospects, keeping in mind the expectations of both types of employers.

• What advice do you have for individuals who didn't secure an internship during their first-year summer and are looking to start recruiting in their second year?

  Firstly, it's essential not to put undue pressure on yourself if you didn't secure a first-year internship. Many successful individuals haven't had one either. Here are a few strategies for second-year students:

  1. Strengthen Extracurriculars: Focus on building a robust extracurricular portfolio, as corporations value students who show initiative within their student communities.

  2. Volunteer for Meaningful Work: Consider volunteering for projects that offer valuable experiences, even if they aren't paid roles. This can help enhance your technical skills and demonstrate your commitment.

  3. Undertake Personal Projects: Engage in personal projects related to your interests, such as building websites or creating product slide decks. These can showcase your skills and passion to recruiters.

  4. Develop Technical Skills: Dedicate time to improving your technical skills through summer courses, self-learning, or training programs. This can make you more competitive in the job market.

  Remember, there's no one-size-fits-all approach. Tailor your efforts to your strengths and interests. And most importantly, don't be too hard on yourself – the right opportunities will come your way with dedication and persistence.

• How should students handle the pressure and culture of always needing to have the best internships?

  Dealing with the pressure and culture of constantly striving for top internships can be challenging. My advice, although unconventional, is to distance yourself from that noise. As university students, we often have a clear sense of our career goals and the companies we want to pursue. Instead of letting external pressures dictate your path, focus on your own journey.

  For me, the key has been compartmentalization. When spending time with friends, I prioritize personal discussions over recruitment or work. I focus solely on school while at school, and on work while at work. This approach helps keep things in perspective and prevents the pressure from overwhelming you.

  Remember that everyone's path is unique. It's okay to walk your own journey at your own pace. Similar to how some people delete social media to remove distractions, stepping away from the noise of comparison can help you concentrate on your personal growth and career aspirations. Have confidence in your decisions and your ability to build your own successful career path.

• How can interns avoid unhealthy competition and comparisons, especially when it comes to comparing different internship opportunities and companies?

  It's natural for people to have varying levels of prestige attached to their internships, and sometimes that can lead to unhealthy competition or unnecessary comparisons. My approach might be straightforward, but it's effective: surround yourself with individuals who inspire and motivate you rather than those who foster a negative atmosphere.

  In my experience, being part of a larger program, like the one at my university, helped me avoid unwanted interactions. The sheer size allowed me to choose who to engage with, and I intentionally gravitated towards people who uplifted and encouraged me. I'm motivated by those pursuing prestigious internships, as they inspire me to aim higher, rather than making me feel inferior.

  As you navigate through internships, you'll realize that each experience is unique and companies have their own dynamics. Comparing them can be immature and counterproductive. By surrounding yourself with positive influences, you'll create an environment that focuses on growth, learning, and collaboration, rather than unhealthy competition.

• Considering the potential negative impact of constantly scrolling through social media posts celebrating internship successes of others, do you think people should delete LinkedIn?

  No, I don't believe deleting LinkedIn is necessary. All social media platforms, including LinkedIn, can be incredibly useful, but their impact largely depends on how you engage with them. While it's great that people share their internship successes, the key is how you interpret and internalize that information.

  When you come across such posts, it's important to remember that each person's journey is unique and their achievements are a part of a larger picture you might not be privy to. Comparing yourself based on isolated successes isn't fair to either you or them. Instead, focus on your individual growth and progress.

  Moreover, these posts can also be a source of motivation and learning. They can inform you about companies hiring or the types of opportunities available. Rather than letting them create unhealthy competition, use them to fuel your own motivation to explore various opportunities. It's all about how you choose to interpret and utilize the information you encounter.

• Do you think GPA is important for university students aiming to secure internships?

  The significance of GPA in securing internships largely depends on your overall strategy for success in the job market. There seem to be two broad types of approaches.

  Firstly, there are academically strong students who build technical skills through their academic prowess, making them competitive candidates. On the other hand, there are students like myself who might not excel academically but focus more on extracurricular and job experiences to strengthen their portfolios. I personally strive for this latter approach.

  The key takeaway here is that succeeding in the job market and impressing recruiters doesn't hinge solely on GPA. Employers are seeking individuals who are hardworking, intelligent, and adept problem solvers. These qualities can be demonstrated in various ways beyond GPA. Having this mindset allows you to identify your strengths and focus on developing them, contributing to your overall success in pursuing internships and future career opportunities.

• If you're still interested in investment banking or consulting but your GPA might not meet the typical requirements, what strategies can you use to reach your career goals?

  Having a clear goal in mind and understanding the requirements to achieve it is crucial. If a specific role in investment banking or consulting typically requires a high GPA, it's important to aim for the necessary academic performance.

  While there are unconventional paths that individuals have taken to enter these fields, I can't provide extensive insights on those experiences. However, generally speaking, it's beneficial to have a structured plan. Many roles in the business sector have well-defined steps for advancement, and following these steps diligently can be advantageous.

  In summary, setting a clear goal and comprehending the path required to reach it is a solid foundation. It might involve achieving the academic standards, but it's also about developing relevant skills and experiences that align with your career ambitions.

• Which is more impressive on a resume, a startup internship or a corporate internship?

  The impact of an internship on a resume is less about the company type and more about the role you played and the achievements you can highlight. Whether it's a startup or a corporate internship, what truly stands out is the initiative you took and the accomplishments you gained. If you were proactive and took on leadership responsibilities, it will likely be more impressive than if you were in a more passive role in a different setting. Focus on your contributions and achievements rather than the company's type to make your resume shine.